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Doctor Who - 8x01 Deep Breath

Deep Breath

After his regeneration, the Doctor arrives in Victorian London and finds a dinosaur running rampant in the Thames. While adjusting to his new body, he becomes aware of a spate of deadly spontaneous combustions and tries to work out the link between the two.

Comments

norwasia
norwasia (Sep 17, 2014)

Are you guys seriously discussion about him kissing other people? Seriously? Wow. As previously mentioned, he didn't kiss to assault, but of gratitude. We all have different ways of showing our gratitude, with different cultures and all. Of course he should've speculated about it if the person receiving a kiss didn't want it in the first place, but that would just take up more valuable time, and that wouldn't really be the Doctors style, so to speak. Oh what I'd do to get The Doctor to kiss me...

I liked it. I was a little sceptic at first to the new doctor, but as they all have, he's growing on me :') And he's so adorable and quirky sometimes haha!

likwidsolutions
likwidsolutions (Sep 07, 2014)

@Tante I definitely know what patriarchy is and I don't deny that our society and culture is patriarchal. What I was saying was that instead of fighting for Women's rights or Men's, Why not just fight for equality? It seems like a much better way to go about it since Feminism often has negative connotations. I consider myself a "feminist" in the sense that I do believe women should have equal rights and privileges, I just don't think women should gain rights at the expense of men, just as any minority should have equal rights but not at the expense of others.

That's all I had to say. I hope you have a good time filling up your TV collection as well.

Tante
Tante (Sep 03, 2014)

@likwidsolutions Apologies, but especially your latest comments confirm that you unfortunately have no idea or simply have not learned about the patriarchy (which f.e. is what causes the stuff you call sexism towards men in the first place) which is such a basic&important concept that yes, discussion is pointless. I wish you all the best on this site, may you have more couchpotato hours than most ;)

likwidsolutions
likwidsolutions (Sep 02, 2014)

@Tante btw I added you because you're right that we shouldn't spam this page haha. I agree with about 2/3-3/4 of what you say. I don't think Moffat is intentionally sexist but that doesn't make it any better, But like I said, sometimes it's sexism against men but it's easy to overlook because it's not a subject that is common to hear. It's kind of like the argument against Affirmative Action. Just because one group is at a disadvantage doesn't mean we can't give them the same opportunities without taking some away from the group that already has those privileges.

likwidsolutions
likwidsolutions (Sep 02, 2014)

@Tante There's still strong women. Clara is a strong woman, even if they have done a few sexist scenes with her. Vastra and Jennie are also strong, physically, mentally, morally, etc. If you are missing Amy's "strength" I can see why it might bother you that we don't her strength anymore, but to be honest, I thought Amy was starting to become somewhat of a b**** a lot of the times. Just as 11 does sexist things, I think Amy does as well. She treated Rory like crap for half the show even though he was always at her beck and call, and had her high up on a pedestal until the end when Rory kind of redeemed his "manliness" and was on more equal footing with Amy. But sexism works both ways. Obviously it's easier to see sexism against women because we've been trained and brought up to notice it. But sexism against men is rarely talked about. I don't have a problem with feminism, but I think that some feminists go a little too far, as if women are superior to men. I would call myself more of an "equalist". I do believe women deserve equal rights and privileges, but not at the expense of men. Men shouldn't have an advantage, but neither should women. I think feminists forget that their goal is equality for women, but sometimes by doing so it is neg. affecting men. Its a common theme in television and movies about the lazy bf, stupid bf, bf who doesn't show the woman the respect she deserves, etc. As if all men are pigs (which is also a common phrase and theme within shows; even in S8E1 Vasha mentions that all humans are apes, but men are "monkeys". Just a small example of reverse sexism. I wrote a paper on Reverse Sexism in college, I don't know if I can find it but I found plenty of examples and recurring themes in our culture that regularly portrays men as "pigs", uncaring, unemotional, etc. Its not ALWAYS the case, but sometimes expressing certain feminist views in such a harsh manner ends up at the expense of men, which is the opposite of feminist goals for equality.

Tante
Tante (Aug 30, 2014)

@likwidsolutions re forced kissing and kissing without consent - there is a difference in what a person does, but its still sexual assault in either case. This means that the receiving person would have the -right- to file charges. What you want to call it is up to you, I am again just stating facts :)
If they like it, great, awesome. If they are meh about it but don't want to file charges for one reason or another, okay, their choice. But if they don't like it and react accordingly (slap, calling the person out) you at the very friggin' least apologise.

And thats something 11 never did, he laughed it off and went on his merry way with his d*ck screwdriver pointing upwards. *shudders*

Relationships are a whole other can of worms, many people still don't "believe" that its even possible for partner to rape partner b in a relationship (it really, really is though... and a sad and horrifying thing if the person you trust most forces themselves on you) but as I said, a whole other can of worms and not really the place or the time here I think.

We have found something we do agree on though. A lot of the scenes in that church were just so disturbing I have no idea who wrote that and thought it would be - of all things - FUNNY. In any case, I think we are done discussing this - you have said your piece, I mine, we won't meet on either end and shouldn't spam this site anyway :)

I really hope Moffat goes soon. He is great as a writer, but showrunner just doesn't seem to work with him and I want real characters as well as women again, please.

likwidsolutions
likwidsolutions (Aug 30, 2014)

@Tante There is a difference between 'forced kissing' and kissing without consent. Although 'kissing w/o consent' may sound bad in writing, a lot of the times it's spontaneous. Yes, it can be very tantalizing and nice when someone says something like "I would really like to kiss you right now", but it's not always like that. Sometimes it's just based on facial and body language as well as mood. Yes these things can be misinterpreted, but if someone kissed me intimately (or tried) and I didn't want them to or was even disgusted by them, I don't think I would flip out (or maybe I would), but I wouldn't call it sexual assault unless they continued trying to shove their tongue down my throat. If they get the message that I dont feel the same way, I wouldn't call it assault as they could've misread signs. Hell on the flipside, I've had relationships in the past where the other person didn't liked being kissed a lot of the time and we were dating for over a year! So would it be sexual assault if I were to kiss them even if they feel like it at the time? I agree that I shouldn't force it, but if I have a bf/gf of a year or so, you have both done much more intimate things with consent and have learned to be affectionate in such a way. By no means would I call that 'assault' though. I am not disagreeing with your points about sexual harassment and/or assault, mainly about 11s use of it.

There were a few instances where it seemed a little over the line, but I think the problems were more to do with maybe how often it happened. There were more problematic instances of "sexual harassment" than kissing. I don't have a problem with the kissing, but pretty much the whole episode where Clara and 11 are in the Church (think it was 11s last special IIRC), where there were constant jokes about nudity and how Clara felt uncomfortable after finding out they could see her anyway. Way too much. There isn't anything funny about purposely making a person feel sexually uncomfortable.

Tante
Tante (Aug 26, 2014)

@likwidsolutions "or feel like kissing a woman without her consent is a form of sexual assault" I don't feel like that is the case, I know it is. I mean, seriously, its a matter of law. Let me quote the relevant part of Wikipedia "[...] or any non-consensual sexual touching of a person. This includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, forced kissing [...]"

Yes there are worse actions that are also sexual assault, but given that 'even just' (*sighs*) groping a person is already sexual assault, forcibly kissing them most certainly is.

If you are dating someone you can assume that they consent if you want to, I myself love it if someone says something like "God, I would really love to kiss you right now" because it allows me to back out and imo it shows respect. And its sexy. Getting consent doesn't have to be "Do I have your consent to do X right now? And x?" even during sexual intercourse. Its more like "Would you like it if I do X? How about this, that turns you on?"

What you do and think is your decision, of course, but why not get enthusiastic consent instead of wondering and hoping he or she will like what you do?

Anyway, sorry for the tangent. Hartnell never sexually assaulted anyone as far as I know, thats true. I was only referring to 11, I think 10 might have had some off scenes as well that were problematic, but with 11 it just came up a lot more often. Lets say he showed his enthusiasm by fondling peoples' genitals, would that still be okay since he is the Doctor and weird and just 'shows his enthusiasm' this way? Honestly, he should at least have stopped doing this after the first time he was told its not okay. And again, its not like this was his first regeneration that encountered humans, he even legitimately lived among them for a long time. It almost impossible to not know what goes and what doesn't, imo.

likwidsolutions
likwidsolutions (Aug 26, 2014)

@Tante I only brought up the ignorant line cuz from how you phrased it, it just seemed like you were complaining about callbacks to S2, since it was RTD era.

As for the sexual assault thing, I still think it's way too much of a harsh term with how Eleven conducted himself. For example, I don't think you'd ever see The Doctor kissing Susan (whether it be Hartnell or Smith). If he did kiss her I'm sure it wouldn't be on the lips, probably on the forehead (which he did to Amy most of the time as it would've left totally mixed signals, which there was already enough of, plus it would put an actual love triangle into the mix instead of Rory just being jealous of Amelia's infatuation with the Doctor...which I'm sure you will agree a triangle is just NOT Who). So it's a false analogy to say it's the same as my father kissing me as he never does so to a relative.

If I were one of those people that the Doctor kissed of course I would be a little shocked, but not in a "I've been assaulted sexually" kind of way. Just an "okay, that was strange, but so is the Doctor" I would't think there was some ulterior motive as the "kissing rapist" as you paint him to be. Of course it would be shocking, but unless you feel threatened by a man kissing you, or feel like kissing a woman without her consent is a form of sexual assault, I don't see how you come to the conclusion you have. Even amongst two people who might be of approximate age, a man may kiss a woman or vice versa without the others' consent because of mixed signals and taking a chance, but I wouldn't call it assault. I would call it someone making an action that they thought the other person would understand and/or return. Now I don't think the Doctor ever expects to get kissed back (although when he is kissed for a decent period it's usually not by choice and is quite obvious, so if he was just trying to kiss ppl, you'd think he wouldn't mind

You sure "sexually assaulted" isn't too strong of a phrase, as is assault?

Sandrosaurus
Sandrosaurus (Aug 25, 2014)

Fuck it, I liked it alot. For me it was better than The Eleventh Hour and it was also the least bombastic (but it still was) episode since Hide. The new doctor will be great, I just feel it. Another positive thing about this episode is that they put Clara back on square one, 7B was her tryout and the audience weren't so good on her I guess. But now with Capaldi she has a chance to really grow. The only part of this episode that was a bit less because it confused me was the whole beginning. But the episode became better by the minute. And by the way the Paradise at the end, was that in the Tardis...Taradise?

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